"'I heard you could hug, but for no longer than a minute,' Gay, 51, shares. Matheson responds, 'more like 10, 15 minutes.'"
"'The cuddling, the touch, the holding, some of it was written into the programme,' he shared, before the pair discussed how the concept stemmed from the idea that gay men need 'male touch,' but that it was offered 'within God's rules'."
"'The idea was that holding was OK, but not holding in a partnership, and not holding if it's going to get sexual. It's kind of like letting the cat smell the salmon, and then putting it away in the cupboard,' he said of the experience."
"'On one hand the recognition of truth, while at the same time we're in denial of that same truth.'"
The three-part limited series Surviving Mormonism premiered in the US on November 11, 2025, and streams on Peacock. Heather Gay visits former Mormon and conversion therapy figure David Matheson to examine alleged 'gay Mormon cuddle parties' held at gay conversion therapy retreats. Participants were reportedly allowed limited hugging and non-sexual holding governed by program rules that framed male touch as therapeutic yet constrained 'within God's rules.' Matheson described the practice as recognition of truth while simultaneously denying it, comparing controlled contact to 'letting the cat smell the salmon.' The series frames so-called conversion therapy as medically discredited and traumatic.
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